Transcript of the 1st video from Catalyst Counselling at https://youtu.be/Ut1nn_2PKCk
Jacob Prasch & Moriel Under Investigation (Graham Baldwin)
Hello. I’m very sad to have to make this broadcast but I am so outraged with what’s been going on that, following investigations that I’ve done, I feel it’s essential that the people outside, people in churches understand what has been going on and the truth about the allegations that have been made against various people.
My name is Graham Baldwin. I’m the director of a charity that’s been in existence for about 25 years. The charity’s name is Catalyst. We work in helping people that have been damaged by abusive groups, manipulative groups, groups that use spiritual bullying and damaged people for their own ends and, it’s with this in mind, that I’ve come to the point that I feel I have to make this statement on air. My background is that I studied theology at King’s College, London. I have a Bachelor of Divinity (BDiv). I have given evidence in the courts as an expert witness, in the civil courts, from the county courts right up to the High Court both in the Civil Division and in other divisions of the High Court. I’ve also given evidence as an expert in the criminal courts from every court from the magistrate’s court up to the Court of Appeal in the UK.
A few years ago we first had calls, making complaints about Jacob Prasch and Moriel. At the time, because they were not very many, we decided that we would just keep a watching brief. This was not something that we were going to take too seriously and the reason for this is that, so often in organisations, churches and any group, there are sometimes personality clashes and it’s very difficult to actually work out what is that has actually gone on by the testimony from two sides. And so, we decided just to watch and, as a result of this, we became aware of this dispute that’s been going on that started with David Nathan and comments about his teaching but which, very quickly, developed into personal attacks against a number of Christian individuals and also organisations.
The timing of this was very interesting. Initially, all of the people that were attacked had had a good relationship with Jacob Prasch and Moriel. Some of them supported it considerably; some had work with him and others had certainly been supportive of the work that he was doing. When the attack on David Nathan started, which was a theological dispute, it was interesting that, because of the intemperate language and the way that it was handled by Jacob, a number of people said that they wished that this was not in the public domain, initially, and that the whole thing should be, try to be, resolved on Christian principles. The amazing thing, when I saw some of the broadcasts in YouTube by Jacob Prasch, (he) showed none of this. They were vitriolic; they were loud; they were shouting. The names that he called people were unacceptable in any society or any group and it was from hearing these kinds of accusations and this kind of language that I was fairly horrified. I couldn’t believe that someone who was supposed to be a minister of Christ, irregardless of the rights of wrongs of the original argument, could attack people. But that wasn’t David Nathan he was talking about; that was the people that said, “Hang on Jacob, can’t we deal with this in a more straight forward way to try and bring unity, peace and resolution to the problem?” They became victims of, what can only be called, spiritual bullying of the worst possible kind.
Not only was it said in private, it was broadcast on YouTube. Letters that were sent were circulated to a whole range of people repeating those allegations. Now, as an organisation that is there to help victims, I decided that I should look at the matter and investigate it fully. Now, I want to state quite clearly that before I heard all of this, I did not know or have any contact with the people involved or the ministries. I was surprised and horrified to find that all of the allegations made about people were untrue; so untrue that, having completed my investigation, I spoke to the lawyers that work very closely with our charity and they immediately said that an action for defamation should be taken and that there would be no doubt about the outcome. So, it’s become apparent that somebody, outside of this argument with no axe to grind, needs to put some of the record right.
I’ve heard and, I’m sure you have too, many of you have heard the accusations against Deborah Menelaws and Stuart Menelaws and their organisation. I decided to ask them if I could see their accounts, if I could look at all the things that they had been accused of and to see what the evidence actually was and, frankly, I was horrified to find out that none of it was true. Jacob Prasch had signed a release at the beginning knowing exactly what payment would be for his involvement with The Daniel Project. But that wasn’t the only issue because every every expert that speaks on a documentary by the rules of broadcasting cannot be paid for their contribution. I myself have been involved in many many programmes as an expert and have never ever been paid by any company for giving my expert opinion and for appearing on programmes. And Jacob knew this. He knew that he wasn’t going to be paid yet now raises the issue that he’s owed money because somebody else was paid. The only person was paid was the person that had to be paid and that was the secular presenter… one person. All of the rest of the experts, like Jacob, were not paid a penny nor could they be. He also accused the Menelaws of making vast monies out of this and, in the words of Jacob, “whoring Jesus”. What a term to make about a brother and sister in Christ.
So, I thought, “Well of course, Jacob would know the figures and I would be able to look at their accounts and just see how much money they made. Much to my shock, I found that they’d made absolutely nothing. In fact, it had cost them money. They had supported the whole project out of their own project and, in fact, still owe the distributors over $5,000. So Jacob, where was your evidence before you went into the public domain and accused somebody, using the most horrid language? Where was your evidence? You accused people of being hypocrites? Well actually, the only person I found in this (being a) hypocrite is yourself because you never bothered to find out. You just accused people of things and assumed that your followers would just accept it as being true. I’ve examined all the accounts for the company to do with their production work and, everything that they have done in Christian ministry, they have never received a penny. In fact, have funded it from other sources and I have looked at the evidence. They have been incredibly open with me and shown me everything I’ve asked for. When I wrote to Jacob, I’d urged him to be not so aggressive and to back off a bit, he didn’t even bother to reply to me. These people have just been totally open and shown me everything I’ve asked to see. When I looked to see what accounts I could find online and actually the Menelaws and their company have all their accounts online that have been fully audited, and I’ve gone through them with a fine-tooth comb.
In the UK, the only accounts that are published is Moriel Missions. Moriel Missions is a specific work which is meant to be charitable. Now, when I looked into their accounts, just for that one part of their ministry (and) nothing else, all that had been given to the charity commissioners was a mini statement showing money going in and money going out. It didn’t, as most accounts would say, have where the money, what were donations in, where the money had come from and exactly who it had been paid to. It was just a row of figures with no explanations at all. This was all that they put in. So, frankly looking at it, I am no further forward in trying to understand what Moriel missions does apart from their statement at the beginning. Their accounts give me no information at all; it’s hidden. Moriel itself in the UK ,unlike its counterpart in America, has no legal status. It’s not a charity; it’s not a non-profit making company. It doesn’t say on its website whether it’s a partnership or whether it’s Jacob Prasch and David Lister trading under the name of Moriel. It tells me nothing; doesn’t tell me what their income is because it’s not a limited company and doesn’t have to give it to the Company’s House. So, no one knows how much Jacob Prasch takes from Moriel.
In America, the situation is slightly different. There it is registered as a non-profit making company and it actually gives accounts. I’ve actually looked at those. Last year the income for that charity was over $600,000. Jacob Prasch actually received, according to the figures, $91,750, over £70,000 sterling. David Lister, almost exactly the same, $4,000 less (at) $87,100. Now, when I look at the Menelaws’ accounts, the difference is they actually help to fund it from their own funds and I’ve seen exactly where that money comes from and I know exactly what it’s about and if any Christian leader wants to come to me and talk to me, I’m sure I can arrange for them to get the same access that I’ve had.
Another issue… In America we are told that Moriel obtained $27,485 in revenue from selling books and tapes. Now, producing a DVD of the quality that Moriel produces is very, very small. In fact, later on they in the accounts, it tells us that the cost of producing those 27,500 tapes and books was $4,555, less than a fifth of the true cost (to the purchaser). Who is whoring Jesus? if you want to use that expression. It’s a filthy expression and one that I wouldn’t use – ever. But who is making money out of his ministry and the people that support it? He produces tapes and books which he sells at very high prices for over five times the cost of producing them. That’s what I mean by a hypocrite, to attack somebody that makes no money out of an issue and accuse them of doing terrible things when it’s questionable whether his own figures are not actually accusing him of exactly the same thing.
Jacob Prasch has argued that the work for The Daniel Project, this great project that was done that made his name and gave him a certain amount of credibility, had come from his work. In fact, I’ve seen evidence of all the research that was done for that; none of it came from Jacob Prasch. It had been prepared much earlier and was done by work coming from a totally different academic source. I’ve seen it; I’ve looked at the evidence. Once again, and I can say that again, if any Christian leader wants to come to me and actually ask me to show him this evidence, I will arrange for him to look at it. Once again, Jacob Prasch has not told the truth. I don’t believe he knew the truth; yet he claimed that he did and, on the basis of it, accused a brother and sister in Christ of the most horrendous things with no evidence at all. Jacob Prasch has accused the Menelaws of being liars, deceitful and a whole range of other names that are just so awful, it’s hard to say. In fact, all I found from them is honesty and openness. They’ve shown me everything I’ve asked to see. They weren’t given a much notice of my appearing so they didn’t have time to create something and, anyway, all of the things like the accounts have been audited and most of the material is all dated and it would be almost, well it would be impossible, absolutely impossible to have created it, just in case anyone feels that you want to call them dangerous or some kind of conspiracy. I found none of that. Interestingly, that everywhere I looked, when I went to visit them, there were commendations; the respect shown them by professional bodies for the work that they do. It is amazing at what high level of respect is shown to these people from in (and) outside of the church and yet Jacob Prasch not only has accused them of things and tried to damage them but, more than that, has gone on to his supporters, maybe some of you, and you have spread the same message. That is slander, that is libel; worse, it just isn’t true and the only reason I’m saying this is because I’m so outraged, as somebody neutral and not in this fight or this argument, I cannot stand the fact that these people are being treated so badly, so unjustly. I would like to warn some of you that have been so quick to repeat the allegations against these people that if they are of God, which i think is very obvious they are, who have been doing a tremendous work in presenting the gospel and presenting the truth to the world, if you continue to repeat things that Jacob had said, accusing them of being the Antichrist, of being involved in witchcraft, evil and so on, you are actually putting the work that they are doing through The Holy Spirit and giving the credit to the devil. That, my friends, is blasphemy. No question about it; there’s no euphemism for it. If you call a Christian brother, who is doing God’s work, and you say that work is the work of the Antichrist, you better be very careful for what you have done and you will be held as culpable as I believe Jacob Prasch would be. I’m frankly fed up with the hypocrisy of the things that he says saying I don’t want this to be personal and then goes on for it to be personal. To say, “Leave me out; leave me out. I don’t want to be involved.” Yet, on his own website, what I’ve looked at recently shows that even after this row and after he’s accused these people of such horrendous things, he still shows clips of himself under their banner from programmes that they produced.
I just want to speak just a little while about Deborah Menelaws. He has pursued her; he has repeatedly sent emails to her of the most foul kind. Things that I had I couldn’t believe a Christian would ever send. He has damaged her health. She has been so under attacked by him, he has caused great damage and distress to her. Jacob, that is unforgivable without repentance, without a full repentance and asking to be forgiven. It’s unforgivable and anybody that believes that it is correct to pursue somebody so completely. Its stalking; its spiritual bullying and it’s something that the church, we the body of Christ, should not, in any way, condone and anyone listening to this who wants to see the evidence of it, please get in touch. I will be happy to show you the evidence of what’s been done in the name of Christ. So called to give purity of doctrine; the purity of doctrine without showing love, compassion to your brothers and sisters in Christ means nothing; it really doesn’t. How faith is made up of love… when Jesus was asked what is the basis of the law, He said two things; He said, “To love God with all your heart but to love your neighbour as yourself”. That’s the summation of the law. I see no love in anything that Jacob Prasch has written and I see no concern for the people he’s damaged and it must stop. And, if Jacob Prasch will not ask for forgiveness, then I really believe that it’s hard to actually recognise him as a Christian because, certainly, the Spirit of God is not within him. There is no truth within him. He shows no fruits of The Spirit and, as such, he should be treated as a pagan and excluded from the church.
Another person that I’ve spoken to is called Sally. Many of you will know who she is because you’ve seen the various letters and emails that Jacob has so kindly sent to everybody. Jacob has asked a number of times, “Who says that he’s been bullied?” In fact he said, “If it wasn’t Sally herself, then it was probably put into her by that woman with the spirit of Jezebel who’s a witch, Deborah Menelaws”. Well Jacob, I read your letters; I’ve read your emails and I’m telling you I’m not any of that. I am NOT on either side but I can tell you you are a spiritual bully. You’ve damaged her by your incessant allegations against her. You’ve said things that my research tells me is not even true. This wonderful thing about you paying for the repatriation of her child’s body to the UK. What merit is that? We’re told to help our brothers and sisters in Christ and, frankly, I found out that you weren’t the only one; that many people did and your involvement was nowhere near as big as you seem to make out. You can’t tell lies and present things; all you’re doing is showing just what a proud person you are, how arrogant you are and how you don’t care about the people you damage. When I read the New Testament, I’m told when one part of the body hurts then we should all hurt. Well, I’m hurting for Sally; I’m hurting for Deborah. Why? Because you have damaged them and you’ve done it unjustly; you’ve done it with no evidence. That again, without repentance and without a force of apology publicly, is unforgivable.
Another organisation that Jacob Prasch has attacked is Intercessors for Britain. Again, I have no knowledge of them before this event, personally, although I knew of their existence and supported what they were attempting but I had no personal involvement and certainly didn’t know either of the people concerned. Initially, the attack was against Dave Borlase and it accused him of a number of things, of supporting heresy, changing the beliefs and the things that IFB stood for. This went on for quite a while before a letter was sent to Dave’s father, Ray, who is semi-retired but still involved. In it, a number of allegations that were made, that were completely untrue; and so, ray replied to it, clearly saying what the real position was and, because remember this was attacking publicly a Christian ministry that has a tremendous importance to the church in this country, asking that Jacob would correct the errors that he had made. Jacob wouldn’t; Jacob hasn’t.
There is an arrogance there that he makes up things, accuses people of things and then, when he’s pointed out his errors, will not put them right. That’s damaging for the church; damaging in a way that is unbelievable that a man of God that is held in respect by some, could do such a thing. First of all, I’d like to repeat I had no axe to grind when I came upon this situation. I was monitoring Moriel because we had had a couple of complaints about them and, I wasn’t sure what to think, so we decided to keep an eye on them. And it was because of that, that I got to understand what this row was about and, I was so horrified that this was coming from a Christian source, I felt that I had to say something. The David Nathan issue, which started all this, is an important one but that’s for the church to decide. If you really wanted to resolve this you would have done it but I’m not interested in that. I’m more concerned with your actions and the actions of some of the people that support you and what you have done to individuals and ministries, damaging the body of Christ. Your actions have become a sore within the body; you have caused division; you have caused pain and you have damaged people. That, I’m afraid, is unacceptable. this is not about you being righteous; this is not about you standing for the truth. The evidence shows this was all about you and your arrogance. When people don’t agree with you, they become the enemy; that’s clear. The timelines, how it’s occurred, what’s happened shows clearly that when they don’t agree with you, you go to war, your words, “War”. How can you use even use a word like that? You have made the most awful allegations against the Menelaws, none of which have I found to have any basis in fact.
I’m going to say something to you, Jacob; I’m gonna say it with great seriousness. I do not believe, on the current showing of the way that you have behaved and the way that you have responded to people approaching you in gentleness and trying to reason with you that I could, in any way, consider you to be a Christian on the evidence I’ve got. I am told, “By their fruits [I] will know them.” I don’t see any fruit in you; I don’t see any of the fruits of the Spirit. I see no compassion and I see no love. I don’t think you should even speak the way that you do about people that are not Christian, let alone people that you yourself seem to think of brothers and sisters in Christ, by your comment that you wouldn’t sue them.
So, here we come… My advice, if you continue down this path, is that any of the people that have been subjected to your abuse, your defamation, your libel have no need to worry about the fact that they shouldn’t sue another Christian because everything you’ve done shows me you do not have the right to come under that title. You should be treated as the Bible says, as ‘a pagan’, so I will be advising them to sue you. I’ve spoken to the lawyers that we work with and they are quite willing to take on the case. So, even if you don’t care about your standing before God and your accountability before God for the damage you’ve caused to Christian brothers and Christian ministries, you might consider that, if you go on in this direction without apologising, you might hurt where it really seems to be relevant to you, as it certainly isn’t to the Menelaws, in your wallet.